How to Go From Idea to 9 Figure D2C Brand by Owning a Niche with Bear Handlon (#53)
There were no limits or boundaries to to what they were doing, and I think that was cool to see. But I think the main point was that the brand is your secret sauce.
Speaker 2:I'm Jim Hoffman, and this is If I Was Starting Today, a collection of conversations about half baked startup ideas, growth tactics, and stories from founders, including my own journey as a business owner. All of the content is centered around one question. What would you do if you were starting today?
Speaker 3:Today, I speak with Bear Hamlin, the CEO of Born Primitive, a 9 figure athletic brand that is owning the CrossFit industry. Yes. 9 figures. His background is very impressive. It involves being a linebacker at Yale, running marketing for Redpull, competing in the CrossFit games, and being active duty military.
Speaker 3:In this episode, we talk about how we launched Born Primitive on the back of one flagship product that saw solved his problem for doing one exercise. We talk about the importance of owning a niche, the advantages of not raising money, how he leveraged offline events as his main acquisition channel in the early days, how his experience at Red Bull and military shaped building a brand. And finally, at the very end, he gives a story about how how one very rude rejection letter inspired this entire thing and made him wanna make this a success. That letter is now framed in his home office. But if you run an ecommerce store or you wanna launch a brand, I think you're gonna get a lot out of this episode with Bear.
Speaker 3:So I hope you enjoy. Alright. Today, I have Bear Hanlon on, who is the founder of Born Primitive. He's got a really impressive story from being a college athlete, being in the military, and then bootstrapping his own brand to a pretty significant size. And he's done it all himself, and he's done it by focusing on a niche.
Speaker 3:So I'm I'm excited to get into it. But, Bear, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Of course. So let's give context. What is Born Primitive?
Speaker 1:So we are a fitness and athleisure apparel. Started in 2014. It started with a super niche product that I developed specific for Olympic weightlifting. It was basically a a custom pair of compression shorts for that niche, and then we kind of expanded from there once we realized if you only launch one product, you you kinda can't go too far. So that's how Born Primitive was formed, and here we are almost eight years later.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You can only launch so many color ways before you might run out. Can you speak to anything around the size of your business or the team just so people can have more context?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So well, just a few years ago, we had one employee. We now have 66. And as far as scale, in in under eight years, you know, we've we've grown pretty significantly. We're I won't give too much specifics, but we'll say we're in the the 9 figure range as a brand.
Speaker 3:Dude, that's insane. And how much money have you raised?
Speaker 1:Nothing.
Speaker 3:So a total fundraising of $0. Got it.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. We we've we we went old school with this one, bootstrapped it from day one. You know, when I started it, I was, you know, employed with another company and didn't really have much money. So we had to be super efficient in the beginning and just build off of the the sales just generated the the purchase orders and, you know, forced optimization.
Speaker 1:I'll put it that way.
Speaker 3:I I'm really excited to get into that discussion of you of should someone go raise money, go for the stars, or do you bootstrap? Cause I think there's some non obvious advantages to that that that I'm excited to hear about. But but first, we we can start from I love hearing the founding story and looking at companies from the perspective of having this idea, getting traction and growth. So if we go back to those early days, it sounds like you basically didn't launch a company. You just created a product to solve your own problem.
Speaker 3:Is that the the origin?
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. Precisely. I was doing a lot of Olympic lifting in the gym. I was I was heavy into CrossFit, and, of course, lifting is part of that.
Speaker 1:And I I kind of identified a need just for myself for a pair of compression shorts that has, a built in pad above the pubic bone. It's actually kinda comical, but when you do the snatch lift, sometimes you can hit the bone there, and then it and it can be really uncomfortable to the point where some of the guys that, like, compete on the world stage have fractured their pubic bone in competition. So Oh my gosh. I needed to create that for myself. Then I realized in the Olympic weightlifting community, there was actually I wasn't the only one doing that.
Speaker 1:Walked a pair of old compression shorts from my football days over to my neighbor who is a seamstress. I cut out my knee, my quad pad. She stitched it into the groin, and that was the first prototype born. And no intention of making more than just that one. I just wanted to have one pair to wear when I did that lift.
Speaker 1:You know? You know, just wash them every week. And then I realized, hey. I I might be onto something here, you know, very niche. And, you know, learned about supply chain, found some suppliers that can make it, and then put in, you know, the minimum order, which I think was 200 units, which at the time was crazy.
Speaker 1:And that's kinda got the ball rolling with with the first product.
Speaker 3:So you're walking on CrossFit with these maybe I'm wrong, but maybe janky shorts that have a pad in it. And are other people like, wait a minute. That's genius. I want a pair. And that was that when the lightning strikes?
Speaker 3:Like, okay. This might be onto something?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It was kinda the the guys at the gym were like, dude, you should you should make more of those. And I like, people you're not the only one that that that's a problem. So then I, like, started researching, like, Olympic weight weightlifting forums online and realizing that guys that are actually good at it were were having that issue. So that kinda was like, alright.
Speaker 1:Well, let me give this a shot. And, you know, then I had to figure out the whole supply chain thing, which was a, you know, a whole another story. I mean, there's all kinds of pitfalls that come with that as I'm sure many of the listeners know. But I I navigated that, figured it out, you know, kinda got our end product, and then and then it really just marketed itself because guys would tell their buddies, like, yo, you know, you gotta get these. And then, yeah, the the dominoes were falling.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. And and having a neighbor who's kind enough to help you build together a prototype, you see this as real. How do you go about finding a manufacturer to do this and to do those first two hundred orders? Did you get lucky and find someone right away, or was there trial and error?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I just started on Alibaba. I'm sure a lot of people use that. As you know, you know, if you type in anything on the search queue, there's gonna be, like, 10,000 hits. So I I had to basically just do cast a really wide net, I reached out to, like, a hundred suppliers, and then you you eliminate 50 right off the bat because they don't reply.
Speaker 1:And then you eliminate another 40 because, like, they can't communicate very well and they're not responding. And then you get, you know, 10 samples and you pick, you know, top three and then you get it to one. So I kinda just was like, it's self taught. I I read a few books on sourcing and just kinda figured it out. Unfortunately, the the people that made it in the first batch were good to go, but there are still things that people need to be careful with if they just do it on their, you know, on their own.
Speaker 1:I've never used an agent ever, and we've just kinda, done it our own way, since the beginning.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. So you you find someone who can make this. You get 200. You have these 200 Shorts. Were they already presold just from your existing community, or do you at that point, do you stand up a Shopify site and you're like, hey.
Speaker 3:We're open for business and and try and get people to come to it. How do you sell those first two hundred?
Speaker 1:It was really word-of-mouth, and and we actually had an Olympic weightlifter who got he was a a Russian guy, Dmitry Klocov, who was a silver medalist, reach out to us before the order had even arrived yet and said he had heard about it. And we were like, wait. What? So So we sent him a pair. His his his training buddies wanted a few pairs.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, after that, we I mean, at the time, I wasn't very savvy on my business approach. So I I don't think there was a very robust marketing plan from what I can, But word-of-mouth did the job, and that was enough to kinda get the the wheels turning.
Speaker 3:Jeez. Okay. So you accidentally get a Olympic influencer. So well done. I don't know how the the word travel, but that's amazing.
Speaker 3:You're selling to and are you selling so you do have a website at this at this stage.
Speaker 1:Is that right? Yep. A very, very crappy one. But, yeah, we did have one.
Speaker 3:So you've got a website. You've sold 200. At that point, you sell 200. Then you have to make the decision, how much more do I buy, and does this become a business? You know, what's going through your head?
Speaker 3:And at that time, what are you doing outside of this side hustle?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I was working for Red Bull at the time, doing marketing for them, which was a super awesome gig. I worked for them for four years and learned a ton from just brand and just I mean, they they do so much good stuff, especially in the marketing. As well as I was prepping to to go to the military, so I was doing a lot of physical training, getting ready for that. So I had a pretty full plate.
Speaker 1:I was also competing training to compete at the CrossFit Games. And so I I I was using all hours in the day, we'll put it that way, burning the candle at both ends, and and this was just kinda my side hustle at night when all those other things were done, and then, of course, early in the morning before everything kicked off. So that was kinda where I was at in my life at that time.
Speaker 3:Did that yeah. That that is a lot. I don't know how you have enough time to sleep. So talk to me about from you have this idea. You get traction.
Speaker 3:What is that next level when you decide to go all in? Because you clearly have a lot going on and a lot that you could focus on.
Speaker 1:Yes. I think the second order, which was again wild at the time, was, like, 500 units. You know, that was our, like, going all in. My ex spouse at the time, who's she she's still she's a cofounder. She's still the COO here.
Speaker 1:She's crushed it. We were running it out of the house, of course. Problem was I was going to officer candidate school with the Navy, and that's a three month program where you're pretty much shut off of civilization for most of the time. So we had about two months of traction, and then I was like, oh, hey. By the way, I gotta roll.
Speaker 1:And we actually it was pretty crazy because of that 500 unit order, they actually changed the way they, like, did the adhesive for the padding. So all the products looked awesome, like, when they came in, but, unfortunately, when people dried them for the first time, the adhesive properties were, like it was basically making the pads fall apart. So my my ex spouse, unfortunately, was dealing with all these customers, hitting them up saying, hey. Like, the pad is disintegrating. And we realized the supplier without telling us to change the adhesive they use.
Speaker 1:So that was actually a great lesson because that was the first, like, major, you know, kinda customer service issue, and we had to, like, you know, take that head on. And and I really learned a lot from that because we essentially wrote every person like a letter, handwritten letter saying, hey, here's what happened. You know, we're a new company. We wanna make this right, so we've already reordered like another order. It's gonna take, you know, twelve weeks to come in, but as soon as we have it, we're gonna mail you a new pair, blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1:And I learned from that that although that was like a nightmare scenario, we won over so many people by just being genuine, like in writing a handwritten note. They were like, holy crap. Like this is like what? But that was we didn't have that many customers. You know, we had only a couple hundred customers, so you gotta like that's your that's your foundation.
Speaker 1:And I think that we've, you know, kind of taken that approach since then and we still apply that today obviously to a lot bigger scale, but but customer service has been a huge component of what we've done and that was kind of the first test in in dramatic fashion because, you know, I was gone and she was dealing with it and, you know, we were totally new to business, of course. So
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's like, sorry, honey. Here's 2,000 customer support emails. I wish you the
Speaker 1:best of luck. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know what? It it I will say anytime a brand or restaurant messes up, that is an opportunity to delight a customer where you can win them over for life. And that's super smart that you did a handwritten letter because, like, wow. They actually do care. I'm sure they speak about that today.
Speaker 3:So talk to me about as you start to go all in on this and you look to grow, how do you think through that next level of growth? Because you're doing two things really well. You've chosen a niche. You're literally solving a pain. You're not just like, oh, this is another fashion brand.
Speaker 3:You're solving a problem. You're launching on the back of this flagship product. How far does that flagship product take you versus when do you think of diversifying to other products to grow?
Speaker 1:I think it was pretty early on. You know, I I I kinda realized, okay. This is kinda fun and it's kinda cool, but, like, there's this is not a company. This is a product. And if we build a brand, then in the future, we can do anything.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? We know, we even we can break outside of apparel if we wanted to. And and so quickly early on, we kinda just made it we started making screen printed t shirts and hoodies and, again, nothing crazy. I mean, we're going down to the screen printing shop down the road and being like, hey. What do you got?
Speaker 1:I mean, it wasn't anything technical by any but that kinda got the the the wheels turning. And, you know, what I learned early is just getting out in front of people and going to, like, events. We were we would be vendors at pretty much any CrossFit event that was within, like, five hours, and we every weekend, that was the plan. Pack up the Jeep and just go set up, a card table and and and just get out in front of people. And and that was really early on.
Speaker 1:That's that was customer acquisition for us. You know what I mean? Didn't really have a social media presence, didn't have influencers. It was just old school just talking with people. I mean, that that's kinda how we, got the wheels turning for from Born Primitive outside of, you know, the initial Snatch Shorts product.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, that's super smart. It's it's finding these people offline, then you can bring them online if they wanna, like, they get into your database. They could buy more products. Like, Warby Parker, they're known as this great d two c brand.
Speaker 3:They did the same thing starting offline with their pop up events in New York. I I think that's really good advice and the fact that you're scrappy doing that every single weekend.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, honestly, as I look at 2022 with my team, I'm almost, like, thinking about bringing that back. Now now we still go to events, but we're not as, like, as hungry about it as we used to be. And I'm like, we might have to get back to our old ways as customer acquisition costs are going up so much. It's like, maybe we deck out an RV and we do an East Coast seaboard tour, and we stop at a new place every day, and we get out in front of people.
Speaker 1:And we have an immersive experience, and we, you know, let them lift weights. We sell them some leggings, sports bra. So it's funny that those early lessons, I feel, are are maybe becoming relevant again as we, you know, all experience challenges with, you know, the iOS 14 update and just, know, customer acquisition costs rising. And more and more people are coming into Facebook and Instagram to advertise now, so it's, like, it's it's more challenging, especially post COVID. So it's interesting that it kinda comes full circle a little bit.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. You're giving me a panic attack because you're listing all the problems we have because we're a growth marketing agency.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like so talk to me because on one hand, you know, doing these non scalable, scrappy things work, writing handwritten letters, offline events. But at the same time, you've built this business to such great scale. How do you balance, like, when to do the scrappy things versus, okay, we've got to invest in scalable things like ads and and other things. Like, how do you balance that and what has and hasn't worked with growth?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I I I think part of it is just it's got to be a little bit instinctual. You know, when you've got to know when it's right to take forty five minutes out of your day and write someone a note and and and and go the extra mile with a customer or whether it's a partner. But obviously, on a macro level, creating basically best practices within the business and how you run things for growth is is is so important too and and making sure everything's scalable and looking at the data. Like, obviously, I think writing a handwritten letter is more kind of gut instinct.
Speaker 1:But, you know, looking at your email marketing, your customer acquisition costs, and retention, all these, like, ecommerce metrics that you have to be savvy on that too. Writing hand letters is not gonna get you, you know, to to scale. It's gonna it's gonna be it can be an air a quiver or an arrow in your quiver, but that can't be all you do. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:So Yeah. Yeah. Doing that balance is so tough. I was the CEO of ConvertKit that does, like, 30,000,000 a year. He literally, like, would send DMs to people be people to be like, hey.
Speaker 3:Do you wanna switch to ConvertKit? And I'm like, you're the CEO of this huge SaaS. Like he's like, this is what got us here. He's like, I really struggle with scalable versus scrappy and what to do. And so it's it's so hard to know where to focus your time as a business owner.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think, like, you can't forget your roots. Like, I still do checkout at our events. You know, we go to CrossFit Games, more a vendor. I run checkout because I like to talk to every customer.
Speaker 1:And it's funny because a lot of times they'll ask, like, oh, what do you do at the company? And I'm like, oh, I'm one of the owners. And they're get out here. Like, you're you're running checkout. And then on Thursday morning, we got there at 6AM for our Black Friday orders.
Speaker 1:Our fulfillment team was starting at 6AM. Like, they're they they're they get after it. And I wanted to show up and help with orders for a day. And it was funny because I was doing orders, and one of the new seasonal employees didn't know who I was. So she's sitting there doing orders with me.
Speaker 1:You know, it's, like, 06:30 in the morning, Thanksgiving Day. And she goes, so how long have you been with Born Primitive? And and the other girl started laughing. I said, ah, about about eight years. But, you know, moral of the story is that, you know, you know, don't don't forget your roots, and and you're never too good to do stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Just balance it with with if you're the CEO or the owner, obviously, you need to do that stuff, make sure the the ship's going in the right direction. So
Speaker 3:That's hilarious. And she was on her best behavior too with the
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. No. They they were killing it. It was a lot of fun. And then, you know, the girls were joking about it after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. She realized, you know, I was I was the boss, man.
Speaker 3:That's hilarious. So that leads to the next question. Like, you see these huge d two c brands raising big rounds of funding. You've got the Casper's, the Allbirds, Bonobos. You know, you're on this other side.
Speaker 3:You raised $0. Talk to me through, one, the decision not to do that. And two, what what does that mean for you? What are the advantages that gives versus the disadvantages?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, yeah, we started obviously completely opposite to a lot of those brands that you mentioned. And, you know, I think I'm more proud doing it the way we did it because I feel like, yeah, you know, if you go raise $10,000,000, like, you have such an advantage of of, like, everyone else that, like, you should succeed. And and I also like and I'm a capitalist, so I I gotta say, I I fully support that approach. And I and I think maybe later on in my entrepreneurial life, maybe I'll do that at some point if it's another company.
Speaker 1:I I do, like, scratch my head. It's like, okay. You lost $3,000,000 year one, three million year two, you lost a million year three, and then you broke even year four, and then you make 5,000,000 year five. Like, is that really like, okay. Yes.
Speaker 1:It worked, but, like, that's not realistic. You know what I mean? Like, that shouldn't work. And and it I get a little salty that like, oh, yeah. Like, we lost $8,000,000 last year, but we have a hundred million dollar evaluation.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, alright. Well, until you make a penny, let's maybe shelf that a little bit. So I, you know, I get a little fired up because, you know, it's the way we did it is so different. You know? When I was starting this company, was you know, part of the time I was loading up a lawn mower in the back of my Jeep and mowing lawns at night as well.
Speaker 1:So like I I'm I'm coming from a totally different world. You know? I'm a I'm a Midwest guy, went to a public school. I I did end up going to an Ivy League school, so I got exposed to that world, and a lot of my buddies are now doing all you know what I mean? So I know enough to be dangerous when we those conversations happen, but it's it's just we we we went completely opposite direction.
Speaker 1:But I think an advantage is that you have to be super efficient because you don't have $5,000,000 and be like, oh, let's spend a million here and see if that works, and then a million here. It's like, no. We have $3,000 in the bank account, like, so how many units we order in and, like, you know, how much gas is is gonna how much is gas gonna cost to get us to that town two hours away? Like, that those were the calculations we were making, not, you know, these 7 figure calculations on a marketing budget. So we're we're proud of that.
Speaker 1:It's our roots. And, and I think it it it kinda created a culture here that that has, you know, really worked for us.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Being efficient, being scrappy. Sorry. Where in the Midwest?
Speaker 1:Indiana.
Speaker 3:Okay. Very nice. So I'm interested. So that's your advantage of, like, being scrappy. Another thing, you have a very interesting background in the sense that you worked at Red Bull that has really fantastic marketing.
Speaker 3:And so I'm interested to see what did you learn from that experience at Red Bull that has helped you at Born Primitive?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That was an incredible experience. I I think probably the biggest thing is just how strong brand can be. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, I think making good products, like, it it almost needs to become an an implied task. Like, of course, the product needs to be good, but the brand side of it is is is the secret sauce. You can't replicate that. You know, in our case, like, you know, we make leggings and sports bras and fitness apparel. Like, really anyone can can find a good supplier overseas if they put enough time into it and make a good pair of leggings, but the brand is what sets you apart.
Speaker 1:And what do you stand for? What are you all about? And and Red Bull kind of taught me that early on and and just like the the the way they market. You know, Red Bull wanted to own things, not put their name on it. So like if, you know, a lot of companies are like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:We wanna be the title sponsor of x event. Red Bull would say, screw it. We'll just do it ourselves. We'll we'll create the event from scratch and it'll be a Red Bull property and we'll own it. We'll own all the content.
Speaker 1:So it was wild to see, you know, their approach and just, you know, there were no boundaries to what they did. I mean, when I was there, that's when they had Felix jump from the stratosphere. You know, went up to a 30,000 feet and jumped out of a space capsule, and NASA got on board with it because they wanted to research it and basically get data from this jump because it was so insane. Like, that's there were no limits or boundaries to to what they were doing, and I think that was that was cool to see. But I think the main point was that the brand is your secret sauce.
Speaker 3:Well, it definitely comes through on the website. If anybody listening hasn't been to it, go to the website because one thing I love about it is you know who the audience is right away, and you speak to them the right way from your about us page to the video you have. Oh my gosh. I wanted to, like, drop down and do a hundred push ups or 50 push ups. However, me, I could do in a row, but, like, people are sweating.
Speaker 3:I think you did the the narration for it, but it's I love brands who know their personas and speak to them the right way. Very, very aspirational too. So another question I had on the fact that you did not raise money. How are you funding those big orders? Are you doing lines of credit?
Speaker 3:Are you, you know, pulling out debt, or is it let's just wait till we have cash in the bank and reinvest back in the business?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, you know, I think early on, it was just we scrapped together, you know, a couple thousand bucks from the bank account, which, you know, was pretty much what I had at the time. There wasn't a whole lot of buffer there. And then, yeah, the the purchase orders had to fund themselves. We we did not do a line of credit.
Speaker 1:I mean, in hindsight, I think that would have made a whole lot of sense. Like, maybe go get a a $10,000 loan from the local banker there. Take a little pressure off yourself, but I I didn't even do that. And then, yeah, the the the the purchase orders as they came in that funded the next one, you know, we really, you know, had very low overhead cost because, like I said, we were selling basically by just going to events in person. So, of course, we weren't doing social media ads or anything any of the wild stuff yet.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, that's how it worked. I mean, it was super lean. I still remember I I I used to have the PayPal notifications on my phone. So anytime we got a sale, it would go cha ching, and I thought it was the coolest thing. You know, I'd get, like, two a day, and then I'd be driving, and I'd get all fired up.
Speaker 1:So it's eventually, I had to turn that notification off because it got a little too much, but but it's it's funny to reflect back on on what that was. But, yeah, the purchase orders funded the next one, and it just kinda kept going from there.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Oh, that's super impressive, man. I mean, you truly have to be efficient as you're running the company like that, but that's how businesses should run. They should be profitable. So you also while you're doing this, you're involved in the military.
Speaker 3:Can you talk through, like, one, juggling that? But second, what have you learned from your military experience and how that makes you or shapes you as a business owner?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing was just task management and and learning how to compartmentalize one thing and then, like, kinda lock it in a box and, okay, now I have to focus on this because they're two totally different things. You know? Maybe you have a bad day at the military job and then you get home and you have a, you know, a total mess that you have to deal with on the business front or and to be able to, you know, kinda lock that up and shift focus and say, okay. Now we're gonna focus solely on this until tomorrow, and then we'll reset.
Speaker 1:So I think I that was something a skill I kinda had to develop. Otherwise, it could be a little overwhelming if you're not able to kinda lock that in a box. But on the military side, I think just learning how to work as a team. Obviously, as we started to grow and get employees and kinda have various kinda subject matter experts doing different things, just getting everyone on the same page, communication, stating, you know, the goals of the organization and setting the culture. And I think those are things I kind of, like, pulled from from, you know, what I learned in the military.
Speaker 1:As well as when I, you know, played college football, there were so many parallels to that as well that that helped kind of in, you know, building an organization, so many lessons that we can learn from sports that we can apply to business. So
Speaker 3:Yeah. I see I don't know about you, but, like, as as far as running a business and a team, actually hate the idea of a manager. I actually like the idea of a coach. And I look at some of, like, the a players on my team. It's like, it's not about managing them.
Speaker 3:They're smarter than me at what they do. It's more about motivating, inspiring, and coaching them. I mean, my athletic career ended in high school, unfortunately. Yours went on to college. Like, talk to me about whether it's the competitiveness or the team component, like, how that translates to being a good business owner.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, obviously, I I think the competitiveness is the biggest one. Super type a. You know, you wanna win at everything you do. I mean, and, obviously, business is very, you know, the same way, especially with competitor brands in your space.
Speaker 1:You know, you see what they're doing, and maybe they do something cool, and you're like, man, that's and then you get all fired up because now you wanna one up them. And so, yeah, that that kind of relentless competitiveness is, I think, is is is critical. I I don't think many, like, entrepreneurs, self starters can be anything but type a, and I I don't know how you would serve. And so yeah. And, you know, obviously, you know, experiencing being on a team growing up, you know, all from grade school all the way up through college, I I think you kinda learn, you know, where you fit in to the the to kind of the greater the bigger picture.
Speaker 1:You know, you're you gotta be you know, the cause has gotta be bigger than you. And when you're building like a, you know, a business, then, you know, that has to hold true. And it's not just about how much money you're making as the owner or whatever. It's you know, you're you're there's so much more than that that that you have to take into account.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. That's it's so true. And just creating that right culture is everything. And so people that can't see it, they were also doing this on video.
Speaker 3:Bear, which by the name, I wish my mom would've named me Bear. I'm a talk to her afterwards. But I think I would've played football at Yale with that name. What position did you play? And can you give me your most epic college football story?
Speaker 1:I played middle linebacker. So that was a lot of fun. Very violent position, but I I enjoyed it. I think probably the wildest story for me was just probably beating Harvard at their stadium with a there it was a championship was on the line, you know, whoever it was winner take all, and and we went into their place, kinda hostile territory and and and and took one from them. That was probably, you know, my wildest.
Speaker 1:Because I I was actually that year, I was a freshman, so I was, like, kind of you know, it was 40,000 people in the stadium, national TV game. Like, that was my first moment being like, oh, this is this is a big deal. But tons of good memories. No regrets there. Lot more maybe wilder stories outside the football field, maybe on the weekends after the game that probably wouldn't be safe for this forum.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, beating Harvard was probably at the top of the list.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's a huge rivalry. I think it's, one of the oldest rivalries in the history of sports, actually. That that's pretty cool to be a part of that. But, yeah, for for the after hours episode, we'll get into those other stories.
Speaker 3:So, you know, a lot of people listening to this, they they have their own ecommerce brand that they're getting started with, and they wanna start one. I mean, if if you were doing this all over again, what advice would you give to yourself, or what advice would you give to somebody getting started?
Speaker 1:Well, I think from yeah. At the very beginning, you know, kinda going back to kinda some of the brand talk is like, you gotta figure out what you stand for and, like, what you're gonna be all about. You know, what are your ethos as an organization? And I think that's step one. I would say step two is then identify who's your target audience.
Speaker 1:You know, I think some companies make the mistake of casting too wide of a net, and then there's no authenticity. Because if you're just like, oh, we're just gonna be a fitness apparel brand. It's like, okay. Well, like, that's like 2,000,000,000 people. Like, what be more specific.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? So I would say, who is that that and almost identify who the person is. Right? Like, down to, like, their age, you know, what they do for a living. And and I this was a cool example.
Speaker 1:I got to see the the the founder of Lululemon, Chip Wilson, speak at an ecommerce convention a couple months ago, and he gave their example of, like, their female was, like, a 32 year old, you know, successful professional that, like, you know, drove a Mercedes and, like, balanced fitness and nutrition and, like, you know, was basically just a badass. And, like, that was who the the kind of stereotypical Lululemon customer was as as they identified it. So all of their marketing revolved around speaking to that person, and it and it worked because the 24 year old girl wanted to be that girl, and the 52 year old girl wants to be that girl as well from the time she missed in her thirties. So I think identifying who that audience is and then being super honed in on it at least in the beginning. I think as you, you know, establish yourself, you can start having the conversation of, okay, are there other verticals that we can credibly and and and and do it in a way where we're authentic.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, think some brands try to just like, okay, we're here now and and the people that are in that space will sniff that out. I'm like, no. You're not one of us. You gotta do it in a way that, you know, you have authenticity.
Speaker 1:And for us, that was CrossFit. You know, I was competing at CrossFit. I I competed at the CrossFit Games. When we would do booths, I would literally go, you know, compete in an event, come out and sell T shirts with chalk all over me and all sweaty. So, like, we we were accepted because we were part of the the crew.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? We we were one of them. And and I think for for people starting, you know, finding out what that kinda niche is in the beginning is is pretty important.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It sounds like that such simple advice, but it's amazing how that gets overlooked. And you almost have an unfair advantage when you are that persona you're marketing to because you're you're building it for yourself, essentially.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. A %. Yeah. It took the guesswork out of it because it was essentially just me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So talk to me about what does the future of Born Primitive look like? Is it product expansion? Is it going into different niches? Is it going deeper into who you have?
Speaker 3:And, like, what is the end goal? Are you trying to, like, get this to be a billion dollars? Is it, hey. I wanna sell this thing or, like, make this something that your children's children's children can have? I I think I just asked you 10 questions in one there, but take whichever one you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think we are to the point, you know, kinda to what I was just saying that I think we're ready to kinda get in other verticals. So we have some some kinda classifiable, call it, product development going on behind the scenes that I think we'll launch next fall that will kind of it'll become apparent then, but we're super excited about it like we did kind of entering CrossFit and kind of the fitness space. It'll be done in a credible way because it's a it's a space that, you know, I I I work in and in some capacity. So, you know, definitely product development, product expansion is part of it, but then obviously optimizing what we're doing with our current base.
Speaker 1:Like we said, we started with CrossFit, but now we're, you know, we're more than just a CrossFit apparel brand. You know, general fitness and people that just wanna work out and live an active lifestyle, definitely we resonate with. You know, from an investment standpoint, this is kind of the first time we're we're actually considering, you know, getting getting people from San Francisco or New York in the mix. And so we're we're gonna entertain that. I I have no interest in selling the company.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm I'm actually gonna be out of the military here in a month, so I'm I'm doubling down. I'm all in on this. I I think it would be cool to get a strategic investor that can help take us to the next level. But, you know, we're having too much fun here. The employees mean too much to me to to be able to sell out.
Speaker 1:You know, I think it's so cool to kinda see their careers develop. And and we're still early, so, like, you know, it's still, I would say, in its infancy. But in in ten years, I want some of these people to still be here and them being, like, VPs and directors of of whole departments. And and that's kinda what what gets me out of bed in the morning and and excites me. So I think we there's a chance we'll take on some investments, yes, to get to that next to to add tack another zero onto the valuation is the ultimate goal just because I'm competitive, but, honestly, the the money means nothing.
Speaker 1:It's more just the the process and and the grind. And I know that's kinda cliche, but that's really what it's all about.
Speaker 3:That's so interesting to hear. And there's this good book. I think it's called Before the Exit, and it's about the guys from Dynamite Jobs and Tropical MBA, like how they sold their company. And they essentially went into a depression because that was like their life's work. They wanted to continue to work on.
Speaker 3:And I love hearing the big goals. And I I question I'd be interested to get your take on. I didn't send this ahead of time, but, you know, I I I'm a bootstrap business owner. I mean, it's an agency, so we can raise money if we wanted to. But I'm interested in how do you think about personal finance as a Bootstrap business owner where I'm assuming you have very much majority ownership?
Speaker 3:Because, obviously, you could take money off the table, go buy yourself an electric car, and do whatever you want versus, hey. Reinvest it back into the business. You know? I don't I don't know. And maybe that has evolved over the years, but how do you think of personal finance as this kind of bootstrap business owner?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, you know, early on, we we didn't pay ourselves anything. So I think, you know, Mallory, the other the other founder, she didn't collect any type of salary for, like, the first three and a half years. She was a dental hygienist and and eventually had to stop that and go full time more primitive because I was in the military, and she was kinda running the operations. And I was, you know, of course, doing military stuff.
Speaker 1:So neither of us, I think, collected, a penny for, like I think her, it was, like, three and a half years, and I think me, I was, like, four and a half because I was getting a military salary. So I was like, I don't need to make money right now. Let's put it all back in the business. And even now, I would say given the success of the business, we are extremely growth heavy. I like I said, I I don't need anything fancy.
Speaker 1:You know, I drive a a a used 2014 Jeep. I could probably buy a fancy car. It that just doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather take that money and and throw it back into the machine, throw more gas on the fire, and just see where we can take this thing. You know, I lot I know a lot of guys in my shoes have taken a different approach, and they wanna drive the Range Rover and buy fancy things and, you know, $8,000 watch.
Speaker 1:And and and that's that's just not how I roll. Nothing wrong with that approach. But it's more exciting to me to take the money and and reinvest it back into the business to see where we can get it.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. That's super inspiring. I I I totally agree. Yeah. My wife said I'm horrible at spending, like, money on myself anyway, so it's like just put in the business.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, very, very cool, man. Well, I love to end these podcasts with one question I ask everybody, but what is the nicest thing anyone has done for you in your professional career?
Speaker 1:Alright. I'll I'll give you like the real answer, and then I'll give you a more a more interesting approach to that question. So I think the the basic answer is just I I think it's cool when people that have made it, you know, are are willing to mentor you, you know, on on business. People that, you know, have all the money they need, have done all kinds of exits, and like, you know, they're just they're, you know, they're they're good to go, and they take the, you know, thirty minutes out of their day to to to let you bend their ear about, hey, I'm having this issue or what do you think about this? And I've had a few people that have have done that for me, and that that's just been really cool.
Speaker 1:So I think, you know, hopefully twenty years from now I can be one of those guys that, you know, with maybe some gray hair, you know, a a 30 year old guy who's who want who's getting after it and needs some help. So that I think that's been really cool. But I think to to to give you a more interesting answer, I think the the nicest thing people have done for me is actually counted us out and not given us a seat at the table when we deserved it. And I'll give you a quick story. I won't give names, but in the first year of a biz of the business, my master athlete marketing plan was, hey.
Speaker 1:We're gonna go after the biggest athletes. We don't have any money, so we're going to offer them equity in the company, and that's how we're going to disrupt the CrossFit market. You know, we're to sign the biggest name. He's going to become an owner of Born Primitive, and and that's know, we're going to take the world by storm. So remember reaching out.
Speaker 1:This guy was the best in the world at the time. You could probably maybe figure out who that is if you if you do your history. And I got through to his agent and explained the business, said what we were trying to do, and I said, hey, I'd like to offer him 20%. You know, we're I'm really confident we're gonna build
Speaker 3:this two. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I mean, we were like three months old, and I I laid out my marketing plan and, you know, I told him who I was and, you know, that, you know, I know this is kind of an unconventional deal and that, you know, he's got 7 figure deals with other companies, but like take a chance with us. Let's do this, you know, together we can make it happen. And and he sent the agent sent me back an email that has been pinned up above my wall since the day it was sent. I printed out immediately, wrote motivation in big bold letters above it, highlighted the the the certain expert in the email that was that was, you know, relevant, and it's been above my wall ever since.
Speaker 1:I actually have it framed at my house now in my home office. So when I'm when I'm feeling unmotivated and feeling sorry for myself, I just reread his email. But he essentially came back and said he cannot advise his client to be a minority stakeholder in a company whose success relies solely on him being involved. Wow. And that was the big line.
Speaker 1:And and you know, he could have tactfully said, hey, it's just not the right opportunity. Wish you guys the best. You know, he's you know, he's he's with Reebok right now making 7 figures, so there's just no way to do this. And instead he kind of had to say, oh yeah, there's no way you're gonna be successful unless you unless my client joins you, and I can't advise him to do that. So those are the people that motivate me and the kind of the and and and I've always said it someday I'm gonna run into that guy in an event and I'm going to give him a post it note.
Speaker 1:I'm just going write a number on it. And that number is going to be what that 20% is worth. And he's going go, what is this? And I'm going say, hey, you remember me? And he's say, And I say, here's the email you sent me ten years ago and here's what that 20% is now worth.
Speaker 1:So, you know, maybe and I'll probably never do that, but I like telling that story. But but, you know, I think for people that are early on in the game, my advice would be to use that as motivation. You know, there's gonna be people that don't answer your calls, don't answer your emails. They're not gonna know who you are, and eventually the tables are gonna turn and they're gonna need you. And I think that's one lesson that I've, you know, kind of learned is that now when I have people that are hitting me up, I always try to, you know, take the time to at least respond and and be respectful.
Speaker 1:You know, that I'm not you know, while my time is very limited, like, know, I can still be humble and, like and and there's just some people that don't take that approach. And so, yeah, the people that have counted us out, those are the ones that have been the kindest to us because it's given us the motivation to to make this what what it has become.
Speaker 3:My gosh. That's such a great story. I love that you have it framed. I mean, that's just gasoline on the fire too. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:Well, Barrett, where should we point people if they wanna learn more about you or Born Primitive or anything that you're doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, did you check us out at bornprimitive.com? If you're international, we also have, you know, our international affiliates, the EU and Australia and Canada and everywhere else. So, yeah, check us out check out our site. Also, you can check us out on social, you know, at bornprimitive.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, mean, that's that's it.
Speaker 3:No. The the site's really well done. Check it out. The gear looks amazing. And just watching the videos, you'll immediately wanna go break a swag, go to CrossFit class or something.
Speaker 3:But, Barrett, thank you so much, man. This has been a blast, and, look forward to following more.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thanks for having me, Jim. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Today's episode is brought to you by No One. Yep. We have zero sponsors. I haven't reached out to any companies nor would I expect a reputable brand to give me money, but I'll give a few plugs. First, I send a weekly newsletter each Thursday featuring five articles or tools that have helped me.
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Speaker 2:So if you wanna work with a team that's worked with startups that have been funded by Andreessen Horowitz or featured on Shark Tank, then check out growthit.com. And finally, I wrote a book called The Growth Marketer's Playbook that takes everything I've learned as a growth mentor for venture backed startups, and I've distilled it down to a 40 pages. So instead of hiring a growth team, save yourself some money, get the book, and you can just do it yourself. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I'd love to hear feedback. I'm on Twitter at Jim w Huffman.